Curse

Lazarous · May 09, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Because you only need 8 skills, capture other elite skills is a bonus and NOT necessary. In order to be competitive, you do not need all the elites. Arenanet obviously have thought about all this, and made the rigth decision. You can tell by the armors and items.

This shows SoC is a necessary evil, but in no way does it show that SoC is a good thing. As to a.net making the right decisions, i would've agreed with you right up until retail release. The 'knowledge' required to get elites right now is limited to browsing one of the growing compendiums of elite locations, the skill required to do so is stubborness. Neither of these things are in any way fun, nor are they necessary beyond instilling some abberant sense of 'accomplishment' in people who like shoving their heads into steaming piles of crap over and over to find one gem. Getting one elite requires perhaps 2 hours - what happens if you want to change to a different build? Another 2 hours. What happens if your guild decides to try a new strategy and needs you to get another elite? 2 hours. What if you want to try a different classes elites? you have to switch secondaries on your farmer character and then spend another 2 hours farming elites. The time adds up, and contemplating the amount of farming i'll have to do to have fun messing around with different builds and trying new stuff is making me really reconsider playing at this point.

Laz

goku19123 · May 09, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Very simply...this game was supposed to eliminate the grind necessary to be competitive(period). That was the selling point, the elimination of time sinks (or as close as possible). We all understand that Arena.net is trying really hard to cater to all types of players, and in such have placed around the world of Tyria various time sinks. However, as good as time sinks are for hardcore PvE'ers and such, there needs to be alternatives for casual players. While there is divide between those who embrace the SoC feature and those who would rather see it disappear, there needs to be a middle ground. The solution - keep the SoC feature as is, for those who are hardcore and can handle time sinks, but for casual gamers make elites purchasable at skill vendors (one suggestion is having the elites cost 1 skill point and a vast amount of gold (something like 2000 gold for the first elite purchase and then scales upward for each purchase thereafter)). This gives those who don't want to spend the time searching another form of the time sink - gold instead of spending hour+ for one skill. I, for one, would rather pay a vast amount of gold and a skill point instead of spending the 2 hours or so it took me to finally get Skull Crack. The unlocking system alleviates this to an extent, but casual gamers don't have that kind of time to spend to unlock elites (not to mention spawn variables and whether or not the boss uses the skill or whether the party is newbs abd doesn't give you time to get it). Doing a quest for an elite skill is also a decent idea, but much more difficult to implement than something along the lines of what I have suggested. Moreover, for those who don't want to spend that kind of gold, they could still go out and SoC it - it's the best for both parties in my opinion. But saying that people should just tolerate a system like this, and deal with it, is not the A.net way. Granted, what some considered grind, others do not - but there needs to be a middle ground. The statement should not be "As boring as it is, I don't mind hunting for elite skills" or "I can tolerate this system" ; you shouldn't have to "tolerate" a GAME, it should be played because it's fun...and if it isn't fun, well...

Augy · May 09, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

To those finding this process a grind, thats pretty laughable. It makes me wonder how many previous MMOs you've played and how much real grinding you've done to make a so-called "ub3r t00n." In other games, it takes months, weeks, hundreds of hours and tedious traveling around and fighting to get anywhere with your character. In this game it takes, what, a week, week and a half to reach the level cap? And once you open up cities and outposts traveling around the known world takes a couple of mouse clicks? And now we find people whining about spending a whole 2 hours to get a skill.

Boot up your copy of Nox if you want insta-PvP, with all skills in a fantasy setting.

Or, if you want to experience true pain, try out EQ2 and camp a spawn for hours on end so you can get the uber drop or advance a quest, while competing with the entire server playerbase to do so.

Seriously, the SoC system is no big deal. If the article that was posted reflects the sentiments of the PvP community in regards to this process, you're all better off playing CS:S if your attention span is really that short.

[/flame]

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 09, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augy

To those finding this process a grind, thats pretty laughable. It makes me wonder how many previous MMOs you've played and how much real grinding you've done to make a so-called "ub3r t00n." In other games, blah blah blah....
[/flame]

Flame is right. All you've done in your post is troll and flame without addressing any of the issues brought up.

And once again, GW is NOT other games! We don't give a crap what they do in other games, GW was supposed to be revolutionary in that we wouldnt have to deal with the unnecessary grind in those games.

And yet again, the exaggeration that people want instant PVP is the only thing people like you can bring up and entirely false. Can we please at least come up with actual discussions instead of rehashing the same old lines that don't have anything to do with the topic?

goku19123 · May 09, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

It's not that it's two hours for one skill, it's the cumulative hours spent if you decide to try a new build - that's the grind. No one said there was a level grind, it takes one day to hit 20; the skill gathering is the grind.

"I'm Colonel Cool, the Captain of this ship."
"Well, which one are you - the Colonel or Captain?"
"Neither - I'm both!"

Kaelan · May 09, 2005, 11:58 PM // 23:58

If we could at least cap elite skills from each other in PvP, I think that would make things a lot better. The main place I see rare elite skills is on koreans in PvP.

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Well, then you run into the problem of people capturing the elites from pre-made characters...which would not be right lol, and would lead to farming the elites off of pre-mades.

Eclair · May 10, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

I think somebody already suggested something like this in this thread:

Make PvP and PvE separate. PvE people cannot play against PvP, and PvP people cannot play against PvE. Since there's obviously people who like the idea of capturing skills, and others who just like to pvp without the hassle of finding stuff, why not just make it so that everything is unlocked for PvP. Anybody who wants to try out different builds and pvp competively can just make a pvp char and pvp with other people. People who like to earn skills/items can still do so, and still stay competitive against other players.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

because that would make entirely too much sense.

Acidalia · May 10, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Stop the whining about grinding already.
I'm a long term Lineage II player and I can tell you, there is absolutely no grind in Guildwars compared to Lineage II

And that person that said that there are so many flaws in the capturing system, do you even bother telling the flaws instead just whining?

I'm simply very happy about Guildwars, the way how it is now and I'm not looking for any changes.
It is a CORPG and PVP based game. So why would you just get to PVP right from the start?
It is a RPG remember, your own character, so work on it than start PVP'ing and you can brag about all your so called "1337" pvp skills.

So far I've gotten most of my needed skills to be able to do some decent PVP and it didn't took me long to get all, the guildwarsguru forums and other fansites have plenty of information about where to get certain elite skills.
Only skill I'm missing is Barrage...

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Stop the whining about grinding already.
I'm a long term Lineage II player and I can tell you, there is absolutely no grind in Guildwars compared to Lineage II

Yet there is a TON of grinding compared to guild wars beta weekend events (even discounting the all skills unlocked function of the last two).

Frankly, I could not care less about lineage 2 grind; I was sold on this game because it lacked grind almost completely in the bwe - that isn't true anymore.

Laz

Sidra Meum · May 10, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

It's not that it's two hours for one skill, it's the cumulative hours spent if you decide to try a new build - that's the grind. No one said there was a level grind, it takes one day to hit 20; the skill gathering is the grind.

"I'm Colonel Cool, the Captain of this ship."
"Well, which one are you - the Colonel or Captain?"
"Neither - I'm both!"

Once you have a skill. Its unlocked. For your account. Completely. Its not like you just spent 70 hours getting a kick ass set of armor and this l33t sword only to have someone loot it from you and all your work goes down the drain.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

Once you have a skill. Its unlocked. For your account. Completely. Its not like you just spent 70 hours getting a kick ass set of armor and this l33t sword only to have someone loot it from you and all your work goes down the drain.

Every extra time sink you add to the game sets the entry bar for competitive pvp a bit higher. Runes are a massive timesink, the skill system less so but more frustrating because its more vital.

That its unlocked all the way after you acquire it is fine, that you have to jump through hoops and waste a ton of time before you can do something that the game was billed as promoting - competitive pvp - is where the annoyance arises.

Laz

Sidra Meum · May 10, 2005, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Every extra time sink you add to the game sets the entry bar for competitive pvp a bit higher. Runes are a massive timesink, the skill system less so but more frustrating because its more vital.

That its unlocked all the way after you acquire it is fine, that you have to jump through hoops and waste a ton of time before you can do something that the game was billed as promoting - competitive pvp - is where the annoyance arises.

Laz

That is just it. You DO NOT NEED to go hunt down every elite skill and rune in order to PVP. You dont need to go into the RPG of the game at all. You can load up and PVP right off the bat. True - you have just the BASICS. The game never said "You can PVP right off the bat with the best stuff in game!" It just advertised you being able to jump right into PVP. Which you can. You want better stuff. Go out and get it.

Helfarch · May 10, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I thought GW was a RPG not a fantasy FPS.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 10, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

That is just it. You DO NOT NEED to go hunt down every elite skill and rune in order to PVP. You dont need to go into the RPG of the game at all. You can load up and PVP right off the bat. True - you have just the BASICS. The game never said "You can PVP right off the bat with the best stuff in game!" It just advertised you being able to jump right into PVP. Which you can. You want better stuff. Go out and get it.

I'm really tired of people telling others what they need or don't need. We could say that you don't need to make Elites so hard to get then. If you keep insisting that Elites are no big deal then why not make it more player friendly to get?

What purpose does it serve to force this tedious skill capturing system on people other than grind if Elites aren't needed? What purpose other than to make those who have the time to waste feel good about their "accomplishment?"

This is a game. It's supposed to be fun. If people want to hunt down every elite skill and rune to PVP, then why shouldnt they be able to? But the thing is, the process of doing so, just isn't very fun to a casual player.

The problem is that there are no alternatives to getting an Elite skill other than skill capturing. And there are no other ways of getting runes other than PVE. It's strange that some of you PVE players keep insisting that it's fun so what does it matter in letting others bypass this "fun" and get their skills and runes in other ways?

Jackell · May 10, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40

They've made the really good stuff hard to get. Oh no.

You can get most everything just by playing the game and questing. Dear lord, help me, they made something you have to work for. Elite skills aren't the be all end all. You can create an equally powerful and effective character without them. But their cool. Personally, I'm really happy they made the really cool and strong things hard to get. It makes them so special. You don't want to work for the elite skills? Fine, don't get them. But it's something that you really have to try for, and when you get it, you've earned it. And no casual gamer this and casual gamer that argument. This game is designed for the casual gamer. A small level cap allows everyone access to the map, and good gear. But it's still got to have some difficulty and hard things to complete. The elite skills are just that. The hard things. Sometimes hearing the casual gamer argument makes me think that people want to start at max level, people want every guild to automatically get a guild hall, and badass weapons. To make creatures do no damage, and every town and skill unlocked.

You have to draw the line between what's good for casual players, and what's good for the whole experience. And working hard for the exact skill you want is good. It's something to strive for, something that has the challenge and the reward. It just makes sense that in order to get the hard skills, you have to do something hard. It's not a grind. I've fought too many Ol Mahum's in Lineage 2 to KNOW that there isn't a grind. It's a challenge. You need a challenge, why else play?

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 10, 2005, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

They've made the really good stuff hard to get. Oh no.

You can get most everything just by playing the game and questing. Dear lord, help me, they made something you have to work for. Elite skills aren't the be all end all. You can create an equally powerful and effective character without them. But their cool. Personally, I'm really happy they made the really cool and strong things hard to get. It makes them so special.

So which is it? Elite skills aren't "the be all end all" or something "really good stuff that is cool and strong?" You people who keep telling us that Elites arent that big of a deal then turn around and say that the really good stuff should be hard to get. Hooray for hypocrisy!

Besides, most people aren't asking for the skills to be handed to them. Stop saying that we do. Man, I keep seeing the same irrelevant arguments over and over and outright lies.

And this is the billionth post about how "blah blah I did this in Lineage 2 and this and that in COH" Do you people have the same speech writers or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acidalia

And that person that said that there are so many flaws in the capturing system, do you even bother telling the flaws instead just whining?

And do you even bother reading the posts in this thread? I've posted a point by point post listing the flaws. Don't you feel like a tool now?

Zek · May 10, 2005, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Personally I think the Signet of Capture is a stupid idea for a PvP-oriented game, but let's be honest for a second guys... Your character can only equip ONE Elite skill at a time. At most there are only a handful that you will really want. Earlier in the thread someone said that you had to unlock all skills and runes to be competitive in PvP, and just had to laugh. To be competitive in PvP, you need to unlock the skills and upgrades that you plan to use. You don't have to capture all of the Elites. If you want to be a perfectionist and have every skill available in the game, then you're going to have to do a lot of playing.

Sidra Meum · May 10, 2005, 02:52 AM // 02:52

I think a lot of people, need to simply read this page again.

http://www.guildwars.com/gameinfo/default.html